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Catching Hell

Coverage by Nobuhiro Hosoki

Story : When Chicagoan Steve Bartman fatefully deflected a foul ball in Game 6 of the 2003 NLCS, the city's long-suffering Cubs fans found someone new to blame for their cursed century without a World Series title. Director Alex Gibney explores the psychology of die-hard sports fans, the frightening phenomenon of scapegoating, and the hysteria that turned mild-mannered Bartman into the most hated man in Chicago.

 

Interview with Alex Gibney

 

(Q) : Did you ever try to get in touch with the umpire?

(Alex Gibney) : No.

(Q) : How come?

(Alex Gibney) : At the end of the day, I’m not sure, I pretty early concluded that the call was correct. Even if you could say, with the advent of the replay, that Bartman had reached slightly out onto the field, it was too close a call to call fan interference, so I felt the call was correct. I didn’t feel like getting the umpire’s perspective was necessary valuable. 

Q: About Steve Bartman incident on 2003, The Cubs have such a loser perspective.. It was still game 6, they had a game 7.

(Alex Gibney): They assumed they were going to lose. They were so used to losing, to disappointment. They were comfortable, it’s like an old suit. Even the players. Moses Alou says he booked his flight home right after the 6th game, because he assumed he was going to lose Game 7. 

Q: Right after Burtman incident happened, The Chicago Sun Times posted the article of Burtman's job and address! I couldn't comprehend that any of a legitimate news paper did that without really considering what's would happen after..

(Alex Gibney) : I agree with you.. I think if there’s a moment when the media doesn’t look very good, that [one is] it. Because by that time, you know that he was hounded down that runway, and that the whole stadium was screaming, Asshole, asshole, asshole. So was there a chance that people were going to go after him? Yeah, I think there was. They outed him, so now you suddenly know where to go after him. I’m not sure that it was such a good call.

(Q) : Do you think that he really didn’t understand that he should have got down there sooner?

(Alex Gibney) : That’s the question I wanted to ask him. I wanted to ask him what he understood and when. He seems to be frozen there, like a deer in the headlights, and he seems to be listening, clearly, to something. I’m not sure, I mean, we hope it’s the game, but maybe he was listening to Pearl Jam or something, I don’t know.
But we think it’s the game, and maybe he heard all this hoopla about some guy deflecting the ball, but so many people reached up. Did he know? Erica Emerson says he keeps asking her what happened, as if he doesn’t know what happened. 

(Q) : It’s also a study in crowd. Even with Taxi, you’re dealing with once people get swept up in the moment.

(Alex Gibney) : Social psychology is something I’m really interested in. As you know, my favorite experiment is the Milgram experiment. Stanley Milgram was a social psychologist. I’m interested in how people behave in different circumstances.

(Q) : Do you think that if Steve Bartman had given an interview afterwards… would it have made a significant difference? 

(Alex Gibney): I think it might have, to be honest with you. I think people might have gotten their feel. In a peculiar way, I sort of admire him, for sticking to his guns and just deciding he was never going to be forthright again.

I think if he had come forward and had been interviewed, people would have had their fill and they would have moved on. In an odd way, his wraithlike disappearance has made people more obsessed with his story. It becomes one of the interesting elements about it.

(Q) : I think what you’re saying with Bartman, that’s true. I think 99% of the Chicago fans would come to his side, and there was that one lunatic fringe  - that’s what I think. I think that he’s actually right to stay out.

(Alex Gibney) : Because of the one wacko fan who would go and take a swing at him.

(Q) : I think the media frenzy is also a consistent element in your movies.

(Alex Gibney) : Well, the media, I think, needs to talk about something. You need to make a story about something, and this is a story. I liked what Steve Lyons and Gowen, the Fox producer, said. Both of them said, Look, we had an impact, we did do damage to Steve Bartman, but we also are doing our jobs. We may not have liked doing our jobs at this particular moment, but this was an important play, and we had to comment on it. 

(Q) : One of those people said maybe it was Buckner, said that every fan, including baseball players, would have done exactly the same thing. 

(Alex Gibney): Steve Lyons, the next day, during Game 7, reflecting back on that incident, drew those rings around those people, saying "All these people were reaching up for the ball." I think they did do their jobs in terms of pointing that out. But in the days ago, or in the days following, it just became reduced to Steve Bartman, and everybody kept wanting to talk about that. It seemed to be the moment – it was like the rending of the cosmic fabric, it seemed to be the moment where everything went wrong.

(Q) : It’s like knocking the stars out of alignments, that’s what happened.

(Alex Gibney): That was just my personal way in. I’m a fan too, and I remember that pain. That personal pain, for me, was Buckner in ’86.  That was my way into the story not standing above the fray, but saying look, I’ve been there. I remember that. It’s not like I’m looking at you, fans, in some distant way. I’m a fan, too, and I recognize that pain and that anger, all those misplaced emotions.

(Q) : The Donnie Moore thing..

(Alex Gibney) : That happened in ’86.

(Q) : Yeah, the same thing. He killed himself later. Were the fans after him, too? Did he get hate mail?

(Alex Gibney) : My recollection was that they were after him, but there was collateral damage with Donnie Moore. He had some demons. I don’t think he was as beleguared, singularly, I don’t think he was driven to suicide solely by fans. He had some very severe drinking problems and some other domestic issues.

(Q) : But there was the sense of failure…

(Alex Gibney) : Yeah, there was definitely the sense of failure, but I don’t think he was driven to that place by that one ball he served up to Dave Henderson. 

(Q) : Is this more heightened in baseball? Do you think it’s true for all sports, or you think it’s true for events in general.

(Alex Gibney): Baseball is a game of anticipation. There’s a lot of waiting in baseball. And when you wait you think. You think and you imagine and you project… a lot of these other sports are a lot faster. Hockey. Football. Well, football has moments of anticipation. Tennis. You know, I think baseball is interesting and plays a lot of mind games with people both on the field and in the stands, because of all that anticipation. 

(Q) : Do you think it’s heightened by our media, vs. other media? In terms of the attention that’s given, because we have so many media networks, maybe in comparison to other places.

(Q) : Maybe. The thing that the fans do, we feel as a fan that we’re helping the players, contributing to the victory. And then one of the fans ruins it, you blame. you’ve betrayed. 

(Alex Gibney) : I think that’s why they went after Bartman. He was one of them. He had committed the cardinal sin. They overlook the fact that everybody in that section was going for the ball. But because he made himself a kind of easy target, sitting there, headphones on, straight ahead, even though he had friends there, which took us a long time to figure out, they don’t seem to be interacting with him. 

(Q) : If Alou told the fans to forgive Bartman, do you think that would have changed things?

(Alex Gibney): It might have changed a little bit. There were people who said stuff like that after the game. I think the bigger problem, frankly, for Bartman, was Alou’s initial reaction. Which was done very much out of anger. He’s the one who points to Bartman. I mean, he doesn’t really point, but he looks to Bartman over and over, going, You bastard. I think Alou felt bad, he wasn’t that great a fielder. But I think he felt he could have caught it, and he wanted everybody to know that that guy fucked him up. 

Q: If The Cubs ever won The World Series, do you think they would bring back Bartman?

AG: The Cubs are in this funny situation. The Cubs want to move on from being the lovable losers, and they want to pretend that they’re just going to be the winners now, so they don’t really want to go back to the whole Bartman thing. But I think they need to. But I’m not sure Bartman would come. I think they should have a Bartman Day anyway, and everybody should be okay with the fact that Bartman doesn’t come. 

Q: Are you going to keep bearing away from the more political films?

(Alex Gibney): No, I’ll always go back and forth. You’ve got to do both. 

Q: Wouldn’t that be great if you sang “Take Me Out to the Ball Game”?

(Alex Gibney): This “God Bless America” thing I think is bullshit. I just think  - it’s a game! You’re at a baseball game, so sing “Take Me Out to the Ball Game.”

 

End.